Vote BUSH/CHENEY 2004 -- Here's why...

[Mr Belvedere]

Originally Posted by DaKilla

I realize I keep bringing the Constitution back up, and I realize nobody really cares too much, but: the country is based on that piece of paper, it is important in every event that takes place in the U.S.

However, the Founders of the Constitution also had it in mind that the U.S. should protect itself at all costs. The intent in appointing the Commander in Chief as head of the Armed Forces, as well as giving the citizens the right to bear arms, was to allow the U.S. to protect itself from any perceived danger. George Washington once quoted, I forgot the exact words, but it meant "Protect yourself and your country first." Iraq and Hussein expressly threatened the U.S. Was the U.S. supposed to wait for another 9-11? You saw the quotes from Democrats before the war. The country concurred that Hussein was a threat and needed to be taken out.

I think everyone in this forum can agree that the world is better off without Hussein. If you dont agree, check out www.aei.org. You can see a video of Hussein's torture, and interviews with the men (teachers, shopkeepers, etc) who lost limbs and relatives for disobeying Hussein.

Finally, for those who believe ALL of Iraq wants us out, read this article:

Is Iraq Better Off? Ask the Iraqis

By Steven E. Moore
Steven E. Moore is a Sacramento-based political consultant. A longer version of this article appears in the forthcoming issue of the Manhattan Institute's City Journal. Website: www.TheTruthAboutIraq.com

October 20, 2004

John Kerry is playing the prophet of doom in the most important foreign policy initiative of our generation. In Pennsylvania, Kerry described Iraq as "the wrong war, wrong place, wrong time." In New York, he opined that murderous cleric Muqtada Sadr "holds more sway in suburbs of Baghdad than Prime Minister [Iyad] Allawi." In Columbus, Ohio, the senator claimed to have a more accurate perspective on the situation in Iraq than did the interim prime minister, whose favorability rating of 73% among Iraqis, it's worth noting, is higher than Kerry's 48% favorability rating among Americans in the latest polls. Kerry, of course, has never set foot in Iraq.

I was there from July 2003 to April 2004, conducting about 70 focus groups and a dozen public opinion polls and advising L. Paul Bremer III, then the civilian administrator, on Iraqi public opinion. Whatever you might hear from Kerry, Michael Moore, the mainstream media and anyone else to whom defeating President Bush is more important than the fate of the Iraqi people, those who know best what's going on in Iraq — the Iraqis themselves — are optimistic about the future.

Iraqis consistently say in nationwide polls that the situation in their country is improving. In polls over the course of the summer, for example, more than half of Iraqis said their country was on the right track. The vast majority of Iraqis — 72% — see the same benefits in democracy as Americans do: the hope for peace, stability and a better life. Most polls show that 75% of Iraqis want to vote for their leaders rather than have clerics appoint them.

In a recent speech, Kerry charged that Saddam Hussein's brutality "was not, in itself, a reason to go to war." Iraqis disagree, as should any supporter of human rights. Nearly 55% of Iraqis say that toppling Hussein was worth the price of the current difficulties. These figures are easy to understand when you look at another set of numbers. In an Op-Ed article circulated this year among the more than 200 independent newspapers now published in Iraq, an Iraqi democratic activist observed that Hussein tortured and killed as many as 750,000 of his own people. Iraqis don't understand the debate about whether Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. To them, Hussein was a weapon of mass destruction.

UNICEF, hardly an apologist for the Bush administration, estimates that 5,000 Iraqi children a month died of starvation and malnutrition while Hussein siphoned funds from the U.N.'s oil-for-food program to build his palaces and enrich French politicians.

Americans are only now learning of the extent of Hussein's corruption of this humanitarian program; the Iraqis have known about it for quite some time. When asked to rate their confidence in the U.N., Iraqis gave the organization a 2.9 on a scale of 1 to 4, with a 4 meaning absolutely no confidence. In contrast, more than 60% of Iraqis tell pollsters that the Iraqi government has done a good job since the June 28 hand-over.

Polling in Iraq is done much as in any developing country. Interviews are conducted face to face by highly trained Iraqi interviewers. For a 1,500-person sample, for instance, 75 qada (the Iraqi equivalent of precincts) would be chosen at random, with interviews conducted in 20 randomly chosen households in each.

Though difficulties abound, the cooperation rate is usually more than 80% — much higher than in the U.S. Iraqis are amazed that, for the first time, somebody cares about their political opinion, and they frequently want interviewers to interview cousins and friends.

>From 20,000 to 30,000 insurgents, many from outside Iraq, are trying to prevent Iraqis who want democracy from achieving it. Kerry has said he would begin withdrawing U.S. troops six months after his inauguration. Iraq's autocratic neighbors are vigorously supporting the efforts of extremists to derail Iraqi self-government. Hastily withdrawing U.S. troops for political reasons would be a mistake for which we would pay for decades.

A look at the nightly news confirms the finding that six out of 10 Iraqis are worried about security, but what's being given short shrift are the strides being made and the intensity of Iraqi optimism.

[reclinerace]

*reads last post by the pinting monkey avatar*
WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!THERES A GOOD PIECE OF INFO FOR DEM LIBS TO CHOKE ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[OTTER]

*reads last post by the pinting monkey avatar*
WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!THERES A GOOD PIECE OF INFO FOR DEM LIBS TO CHOKE ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, you sound like a complete moron with 80% of your posts. Stop posting bs.


You said the world would be better off w/o Saddam, then started rambling about something else. you have saddam...! You guys are killing the youth of America by staying in there. I don't care what you say, its true. You have Saddam, but feel the need to let the future of your country die....thats all I have to say, Im done with this topic.


Summary: you have Saddam, get out before you whipe out your entire forces . You guys are killing the future of your country for a lost cause, thats that, no political talk will get you out of that, you are killing them all, well done.

[AL GIORDINO]

I've stayed out of this conversation for the most part, other than to point out Bush and Kerry and Clinton and Bush Sr are all members of Skull and Bones.

Now I'm going to basically lay it out why Iraq was neccessary after 9/11, even though there was no DIRECT connection.

The basic problem is most everyone I meet has a problem looking at the BIG PICTURE, outside their own perfect little world. I'm now going to lay out the BIG PICTURE.

1300 soldiers dead? In WWII, the total number of dead exceeded 25,000,000. We learned in WWII the concept of preemptiveness. Through Hitler, we learned that 'appeasement' does not work. Anyone here ever take a history class?

The whole point of Afghanistan and Iraq is to combat terrorism, not just in these two countries, but throughout the middle east and the entire world. How? By spreading DEMOCRACY.

DEMOCRACY.

It's a great word and the best form of government that this human race has ever created. Everyone in the world these days seems to forget that except for the last 100 years, PRIOR TO THAT, AND ALL THROUGH HUMAN HISTORY FOR _THOUSANDS_ OF YEARS:

There was no air conditioning or heating.
You showered once a month IF YOU WERE LUCKY.
No LIGHTBULBS, computers, tvs, CARS
ETC ETC ETC

It amazes me how little people think about what we really are, and where we came from. WE LIVE IN A GODDAMN UTOPIA. What other generation even did what you are doing right now? Forget the future being a utopia, WE ARE LIVING IN IT PEOPLE. We were once a country of farmers! How would you like busting your a$$ in the field all day, and your reward was just YOU CAN STAY ALIVE FOR ANOTHER DAY. If you were 40 years old, you were an old man. 25..., jesus christ your already over the hill.

Pleaseee, think about that.. be thankful for what we all have.

Don't take for granted ALL the things we have nowadays. They were provided for us by PAST generations of Americans. How many people here work a real job, where you really CREATE something that you can hold in your hand, or look at and use? Nobody I'd bet.
Everything is built by robots, or cheap labor, and that cheap labor even has it easy compared to what 99% of people did a centuary ago.

Us Americans, we sit in our plush offices and process things on a computer, then hop in our beautiful car to drive home 20 miles in 20 minutes on an INTERSTATE and have a huge steak and watch some TV, or play some video games. God forbid you ever need to do something to get your hands dirty, or do some REAL work. Aside from your parents and grandparents, past generations slaved to do the most basic of things... A 20 mile trip took all day with a HORSE and you would be sweaty and dirty and you'd stink.. And now our worst job in this country is standing behind a counter in a building with A/C, asking people what they want to eat, and GOD FORBID, we need to walk 10 feet to get them their SUPER BIGGIE FRIES and HALF GALLON OF COKE.

ALL the things we have to be grateful for are a result of the free market system and Democracy.

How does this affect the middle east? Because, once people stop living under a DICTATOR, start voting for whom they want.. and start doing what they WANT TO DO, thats when the free market system goes into affect.

Imagine an Iraq with democracy and wealth.. sort of like a junior America.. Iraq is one of the most naturally rich countries in the world because of their oil. Now imagine there were no terrorists in Iraq. Imagine all Iraqi's talking on cell phones, driving cars, watching TV.. PORNO EVEN, is a great thing. They just can't imagine what is in store for them. We are talking Freedom. And yes they are going to have to work for it, it's not just going to happen. There are going to be those who resist, but in the end, they cannot stop the tide of time and history.
You have the vision. Now contrast this vision of Iraq with those other poor souls in other countries like Iran, Syria, etc etc..

These guys are going to see the Iraqi people and be like WOW THEY HAVE IT SO GOOD. WE WANT TO BE LIKE THEM. GO DEMOCRACY. DOWN WITH THE AYATOLLAH'S.

That's the ONLY way to beat the terrorists. And thats what we are doing over there.

The middle east is a problem that needs to be dealth with, sooner rather than later. Imagine we did nothing.. Iraq would try and restart their WMD program as soon as everything blew over.. Iran would continue to develop nuclear weapons.. LYBIA, would STILL HAVE WMD, which they turned in right after we invaded Iraq!! Syria doesnt have great intentions either..! Arabs would become increasingly discontent with the fact that the rest of the world is sooo rich, and has it sooo good, meanwhile, most of the real wealth in the world (oil) is on their land, BUT its going to America and the rest of the world! That's what Osama and them are all mad about.

This war is going to turn the tide.. its going to allow the Iraqi's and other arabs to tap into the wealth that is oil.. through the free market system, a new Middle East will emerge, and it will become part of the NEW WORLD ORDER that George Bush Sr used to speak about. That's the world being at peace, under a free market system. It's the only way this planet is going to survive, with billions and billions of OBESE people living on it.

The argument is that we are just breeding another generation of terrorists.... well, when those kids start playing video games, watching cartoons, playing without fear that your dictator is going to annihilate you and your entire religion, flying in airplanes, going on vacation, talking on cell phones, jerking off to porno when they are 13.. do you really think they will complain? That they will look back and say "Things were better under Saddam". NOOOO..

Our mission over there is just, and if we don't succeed, it's just going to be like taking a huge step back. This world is getting smaller and smaller. You can't have crazy Arabs running around with weapons of mass destruction and killing people. This isn't about just looking out for Americans, 1300 soldiers, or revenge for 3100 people in New York. This is about the FUTURE OF CIVILIZATION, not the human race. Being alive is a lot different than being able to LIVE, the way we do now. We are going to take the middle east, and in the 21st century, their countries and economies are going to move forward a thousand years... and we will pay for it.. because

We need to make them part of what we have. It's the only way the world can survive. Civilization is a delicate thing! It can decay! WTF would you do if Washington or New York City was nuked? People instantly would die in an amount 40x over the TOTAL number of soldiers we have in Iraq. Money would have NO value. There would be pure chaos around the globe. Is that not worth fighting for?

Believe me people, it's a lot easier to go backward than it's been to go forward. WE ARE LUCKY TO LIVE IN THIS TIME. We are laying the foundations so that in 50, 100, 150 years, that generation of Iraqi's worst job is that job at Micky D's.. and they can cruise home from their office on the Iraqi Interstate in their car made in Iran and watch their TV that was made in Syria while they eat their steak imported from the USA.. thats what this is about.

[SOCOMisAWESOME]

Well said Giordano. I am now hugging you through hyper space.

[Mr Belvedere]

Originally Posted by øtter

[

You said the world would be better off w/o Saddam, then started rambling about something else. you have saddam...! You guys are killing the youth of America by staying in there. I don't care what you say, its true. You have Saddam, but feel the need to let the future of your country die....thats all I have to say, Im done with this topic.


Summary: you have Saddam, get out before you whipe out your entire forces . You guys are killing the future of your country for a lost cause, thats that, no political talk will get you out of that, you are killing them all, well done.

Once again, do you think countries should fight in a country and then leave it in shambles? Do you think we should have just went in and captured Hussein and left the people of Iraq without a government?

Your reasoning really doesnt make sense. First you claimed we shouldnt have been in Irq. Now you are saying we were justified, but now that we have Hussein, we shouldnt clean up the aftermath. The U.S. and ANY COUNTRY would be condemned for not helping Iraq after going in. As far as I'm concerned, the countries who aren't providing aid are doing it more to spite the U.S. It's obvious Iraq needs help, and it is our duty to clean up what is left after capturing Hussein.

As an analogy, if there is a bank robber in a bank with hostages, and you go in to stop him from killing the innocent. You manage to capture the robber, but in the shootout, he has hurt many of the hostages. Do you just take the robber and go? Or after subduing the robber, don't you also try to help the innocent?

Your reasoning seems a little naive and selfish. I dont think any country would stand for your quick solution.

[SOCOMisAWESOME]

You continue to impress me Belvedere. He's exactly right about how we could not leave Iraq in the middle of reconstruction -- Kerry would PULL OUT OUR TROOPS. Ridiculous? NO, that's the kind of guy Kerry is. A traitor.

[Mr Belvedere]

Exactly. We're stuck in a Catch-22. If we leave now, the other countries will call us cowards, and the Iraqis will blame us for leaving them. If we stay, the countries still criticize us. Remember how long it took us to occupy Japan in order to bring stability after WW2.

Also, it is becoming more important now to see that our top opposition to the war in Iraq was France and Russia, 2 countries who have heavily invested in Hussein's Iraq with weapons for oil. If you don't believe that, check out the 9-11 Commission report. Also, the DRUDGE Report and Washington Times are reporting that Russia troops moved the "missing explosives" in March 2003 for the Iraqis into Syria. It seems these countries were against us going into Iraq b/c of their own financial gain. Also, it is evident the UN had a deal w/ Iraqis in the "Oil for Food" deal. These countries are solely opposed to our "invasion" for their own selfish gain; they dont care about the Iraqis.

I strongly believe 20 years from now, Iraq will prosper like Qatar and other top countries in the Middle East. Bush will be remembered for bringing democracy to the region.

[reclinerace]

i agree totally.
Kerry has stated that the troops and the president wre filing to do there job of protecting stockpiles of weapons that dissapeard before the war.(Hannity and Colmes last night)

[SOCOMisAWESOME]

Do not believe what the majority of the news says. Only more conservative shows, websites and magazines will report the truth: The weapons were gone months before ANY American soldier was in Iraq. But no, Kerry jumped on this issue, without even caring that it was probably a lie, and has made it their big "October Surprise."

This shows how desperate the Kerry/Edwards Camp really is.

They use a false issue, and make it the center point of their campaign.