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  1. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by discombobulate View Post
    Been feeling lazy since I woke up and need a little push.
    Could be caused by a nutrient imbalance too, Bob. A Vitamin B complex could be of great benefit to you (helps in ATP production during cellular respiration in case anybody is wondering what the science is behind it...pm me for more).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Pre View Post
    Could be caused by a nutrient imbalance too, Bob. A Vitamin B complex could be of great benefit to you (helps in ATP production during cellular respiration in case anybody is wondering what the science is behind it...pm me for more).
    Pre, do you have a recommendation on a daily multivitamin or vitamins to just take carefully?
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    I had a whole fucking post typed out for you, but my window just closed on me soooo I will type it later tonight or tomorrow. I cannot even tell you how pissed I am.
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    I always drink raspberry herbal tea. But from what I understand nothing about tea overall is good for you. Cons out weigh the pros. But I personally love the taste, and even bring my thermos into work every day :)
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    I'm totally rockin' some Bavarian Wildberry tea with some organic honey. DEEEEEE-LISH! Fuck, the smell alone of the tea is godly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seipher09 View Post
    I always drink raspberry herbal tea. But from what I understand nothing about tea overall is good for you. Cons out weigh the pros.
    Wait, what? What are the cons?? And what do you mean "nothing in tea is overall good for you"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Go Pre View Post
    Could be caused by a nutrient imbalance too, Bob. A Vitamin B complex could be of great benefit to you (helps in ATP production during cellular respiration in case anybody is wondering what the science is behind it...pm me for more).
    Damn I hate when people needlessly overmedicate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    Damn I hate when people needlessly overmedicate
    Overmedicate???

    There's nothing about his post saying to go to the store and pile up on this, that, this, this, and those too. If you think that's overmedicating then why don't you share what your solution is to the OP

    There's nothing wrong with taking a multi-vitamin and/or even specific vitamins. I think you'd be surprised to how much good they can do for you. My friend went to his nutrionist I believe for a certain issue and was recommended to start taking a jumble of vitamins and minerals..and he's said he's never felt better since taking them.
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    "Overmedicate" can also refer to taking medication that is unnecessary (which is what I meant), not just polypharmacy.

    When I read the original post it didn't sound like the person was asking for advice. I do not think the original poster was quite referring to the level of fatigue associated with some vitamin deficiencies, either. I read it merely as a simple off-hand comment about "needing a push in the morning", which is very common and not at all unusual or abnormal (particularly if sleep deprivation is involved). I mean, who seriously gets up bright and perky every morning? Good for you if you do, but most people are at least a little groggy in the morning since they were just sleeping. Usually it naturally goes away within an hour of waking up. Some people feel better after having a drink of water or eating breakfast when they wake up; others prefer caffeine or a "sugar hit".

    By all means, if someone finds themselves "feeling sluggish" all day for no reason then you should tell them they should see their GP and get tested, particularly if there are other signs/symptoms involved (since fatigue alone could be symptomatic of just about any known disease or illness, or completely idiopathic itself). But I would leave diagnosing yourself or someone else to a doctor who has done the necessary battery of tests to show or eliminate other possibilities, for a number of reasons. For starters, it could be something more serious than what you diagnose; you don't know their health status, past medical history or what medications they take (some over-the-counter medications can have some seriously severe adverse reactions if mixed with other medication, alone, taken with a current medical problem, or have a high level of toxicity if not taken appropriately); and at the very least they could be spending money on something they don't need.

    It's a commonly held belief that vitamin and mineral supplements are "good for you", but that doesn't mean they come risk-free. Nor do things we think are good just because they're "organic", like herbs (don't get me started on herbal/alternative medicine). At the very least they are ineffective and a waste of money. At worst they can be lethal, particularly if you're not suffering from a deficiency (which if you're reasonably healthy and eat a sensible diet, you most likely do not have).

    I believe that some people who take vitamin supplements may feel more energetic or less fatigued, and if it helps them then that's fine (so long as they've checked with their doctor or pharmacist regarding side effects, contraindications, appropriate dosage, and know the symptoms of toxicity). But (disregarding the fact it's most likely as a result of "the placebo effect"), if they do work, you're better off getting those things from your diet anyway. It increases bioavailability (the body's ability to absorb the nutrients, which is a huge problem when it comes to vitamin supplements), and from the studies that I have read regarding the correlation between disease and vitamin/mineral deficiencies, the greater health benefits regarding these diseases are seen from those that get the vitamin/mineral through diet rather than supplement.

    My point is that I don't think the original poster was asking for advice, let alone inferring they suffered chronic fatigue (we'd have to ask him/her more questions), so when I see people trying to medicate others (particularly for things that are normal for most people) it grinds my gears a little bit. ... like when doctors prescribe antibiotics to treat the flu.
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    Thanks for the detailed and level headed response..seems a lot of times we don't get that around here.

    I'll have to say you're right in the fact that Bob wasn't asking for any advice regarding it, and we'd have to know more details to know if he feels that way every day or just sometimes...When I typed up "what is your solution to it" I was going off memory(bad memory at that, as you can see) thinking for whatever reason he was asking for something instead of just stating he gets a 'pick me up' from tea.

    With that said I don't mind someone saying "hey, it could be X or it could be Y". We have a disclaimer for this section that none of us are doctors and recommend to go see a real one should you have any problems, so the smart ones(hopefully everyone here) will take things with a grain of salt and do some research and/or go see a doctor. At the same time I don't see what would be wrong with taking a vitamin or multi-vitamin without it being prescribed by a doctor. Should we? Probably..but we should also do plenty of things that we as humans don't.

    My point is that we all understand that whatever someone says here is just some guy(sometimes friends) saying something to you without the experience and know-how of a doctor. Whether the person acts on it is up to them..and even a heads up to something it *could* be is still harmless in my book. This story may not relate as it DID come from a doctor(but the principle is still the same), but when I got my blood taken and tested, there was nothing wrong with it at all..however according to the doctor my thyroid was a tad off, or whatever words he chose to use saying that it wasn't necessarily bad however it wasn't perfect either. Said I should go for another blood test 6 months later. Yes I know it came from a doctor but at the same time I took it as a "hey, heads up..you might wanna keep an eye on this" which to me is completely harmless.
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    Yeah, I just took a look at a few more threads and it seems that this board probably isn't the best place for me to lurk. I am a nurse, so I do know quite a bit, but I'm just not happy with the standard of advice given on this board (I'd just end up getting into arguments with people in every thread). In this case, it just ticked me off that someone first jumped to a conclusion, then immediately started pushing pills. I'm also not a fan of people who don't have all the facts acting as if they do, because frankly it's just not safe for anyone involved (not just talking about this guy but in other threads as well).

    To be clear, my post was actually talking about vitamin and mineral supplements (I wasn't talking in general terms regarding just all advice given from non-professionals about anything, but as you pointed out it could be applied that way as well). Whether you want to believe it or not, the fact is that they can/do interact with other drugs, have adverse side effects, and can be harmful not only when taken in excess, but when taken in certain circumstances and with regards to co-morbidities (if you can't excrete it, for example, what do you think is going to happen?). I even looked up the exact interactions, side effects, contraindications, toxicity, etc. of a few vitamin supplements today, but there were too many things to list here (and chances are, if you're not a health professional, you probably wouldn't understand the significance of them anyway and I'd have to explain it in another TL;DR post).

    Seriously, you don't need a lot of vitamins and minerals in general, so unless you show actual signs of a deficiency then there is no reason for you to take a supplement (unless you're pregnant, elderly, a drug user, etc. for prophylactic reasons). You're just wasting money, at best. At worst, Bob could be taking one such medication that the supplement counteracts and your flippant advice could prove detrimental to his health. So no, I wouldn't class vitamin and mineral supplements as "just one of those things you can take and have nothing to lose".

    Unfortunately, I believe your anecdote is comparing apples and oranges. Laboratory results are compared to reference intervals (a range, such as 1.00-5.00 mmol/L) to indicate whether something is high or low. Your test results were probably on the high or low end of the normal range, or a few mmol/L (or whatever unit is used) over or under normal. So of course our first piece of advice is to get re-checked later, since anyone can tell that result indicates something could become a problem down the track (or is that not obvious to the general layperson? I thought it was just logical, but I am a health professional so I don't think the same way as a layperson). Or not. Sometimes it's normal for the patient and they suffer no ill-effects.

    My point is that there's a difference between having objective proof of something being a problem (or potentially being a problem), and diagnosing a vitamin deficiency based on something as general and subjective as someone saying they "need a push in the morning". I think you would agree there is a very big difference in the standard of proof/evidence there. And of course a trained health professional advising you to take another blood test (which has the benefit of not having any drug interactions or adverse side effects, etc.) based on objective evidence is harmless. Diagnosing a vitamin deficiency and prescribing supplements based on someone saying they "need a push in the morning" without knowing the person, their health status, co-morbidities, past and current medical history, baseline vitamin profile, and what medications they take,however, is not 100% harmless though.

    So yeah, disclaimer aside and all that jazz, his advice just ticked me off, basically =P I'm not really against giving advice over the internet in general since I've diagnosed a few people I know, but I think you might agree I'm in a slightly better position to determine the cause of something and what considerations are important before giving advice (I've also always suggested they see their GP to confirm it and so far I haven't been wrong).

    Edit: lol sorry if that sounds all patronising and like I'm full of myself, I just wanted you/others to know where I was coming from and the difference in the standards of advice between professionals and non-professionals and subjective and objective data collection.

    Also, I guess a balanced discussion of the validity of vitamin supplements would include that overdose is rare (at least resulting in death, no statistics on harm in general and prevalence of adverse events associated with taking them), and that some vitamin supplements are safer than others (in terms of the likelihood of causing toxicity; water soluable vitamins for example that generally don't build up in the body are safer than fat-soluable vitamins).

    Furthermore, I don't at all think that the person who gave that advice about taking vitamin B complex was doing so flippantly or without any fore-thought, but I still take issue with it (plus I'm just dead biased against useless supplements, overmedication and diagnoses based on assumption).

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    Regardless of what anybody says, i'm strongly against taking Vitamin supplements everyday. The ones that have all the Daily Recommended Values or whatever. Maybe 2 to 3 times a week but that's it.

    From my experiences and from others that have said the same to me, even when taking just the 100% daily recommended amount every day...It makes you more hyper over the long haul. Maybe not for the first day or 2....but after that = yes. Ever notice why so many people start taking them and then stop. But they don't really have an answer for why they stopped ?

    From reading Bunny's post just now, now offense but the first thing I think of is someone musta took too many vitamins today. (that was pretty indepth, wouldn't ya agree ?)

    That's cool that you're a nurse though. I'm looking forward to some interesting debates soon.

    Like how Doctors love it how the world is becoming more obese by the day.

    more health issues, more diabetes = better for business.

    Or all this end of the world / economy talk on the news everyday = more people scrambling to doctors for their anxiety / depression meds. The medical industry's gotta be lovin it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunny View Post
    My point is that there's a difference between having objective proof of something being a problem (or potentially being a problem), and diagnosing a vitamin deficiency based on something as general and subjective as someone saying they "need a push in the morning". I think you would agree there is a very big difference in the standard of proof/evidence there. And of course a trained health professional advising you to take another blood test (which has the benefit of not having any drug interactions or adverse side effects, etc.) based on objective evidence is harmless. Diagnosing a vitamin deficiency and prescribing supplements based on someone saying they "need a push in the morning" without knowing the person, their health status, co-morbidities, past and current medical history, baseline vitamin profile, and what medications they take,however, is not 100% harmless though.
    I think where we disagree is how we interpreted the "advice given"..maybe it's just our professions, you being a nurse and all and me, not so much, but the way I took it was as a heads up..that it *COULD* be this.

    see:

    Could be caused by a nutrient imbalance too, Bob. A Vitamin B complex could be of great benefit to you.
    I don't really wanna get into nor argue about grammar and shit so the best way I can sum it up is this: I nor do I THINK anyone here read that as Pre telling Bob he NEEDS to take a Vit. B complex, nor did I see it as him automatically diagnosing it as a vitamin deficiency. Again, maybe it's just our professions and backgrounds that make us see this differently.
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    Hmmm, I see your point. I just read it a little more forcefully I guess, because it didn't say "it could be a vitamin deficiency, why don't you get that checked out?" before suggesting medication (but I guess, as you said, that could be a given, with the disclaimer and all). *Shrugs* No biggie. =)

    I would still like to know what the "cons" about drinking tea are though =P Don't suppose I'll ever find out now. Probably for the best.

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    If someone told me there were 'cons' to drinking tea, I would just say 'bullshit' whether it was true or not and keep drinking it.

    I first started loving tea when I was little, because my grandmother would drink it constantly. I believe hers was just store bought black tea with some milk in it, but after she passed away I kind of started..collecting, you could say, different flavors and types of tea. I really love them all. Tea is much better for you than coffee, and most tea is full of antioxidants, which makes it even more marvelous. It seems like there's a tea for everything, like stress relief, energy, immunity, etc. Right now I'm only drinking decaf tea, because caffeine is a no-no for pregnant women. I really like the Irish Breakfast Tea I got (decaf of course)..it's pretty much just a really strong black tea for those of you who haven't tried it yet. Apparently the caffeinated version has a crazy kick to it (store I bought it from told me it's more energizing than a cup of coffee, tastes better too). I also have a yummy cinnamon sort, I forget everything that's in it, but it tastes so damn good and by the end of the cup, it's spicy/sweet. =P

    Yup, crazy about tea. :) Can't stop buying it XD
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    I love TEA... Its a kind of dose for me which keeps me alive when i get some nervous feelings ..!!
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