The moment of realization...what do you think?

[AGuyWithaGun]

Me and Lu were having a discussion the other night and I was curious as to what some of your opinions on the following would be. I'm not trying to pop off any kind of specific argument; rather, a genuine discussion about the following topic. The topic of mortality and our understanding of it.

The other day, believe it was Friday evening, The History Channel aired a show recounting Sept. 11 and the events that happened on that day. It covered everything from the planning of to the carrying out of the tragedy on that day by the terrorists. It was actually a very good program. At the end, as the plane was being guided into the first tower struck that day, it showed a scene in which the terrorist in the cockpit where chanting slogans to quell their fear of meeting their end. I saw this as proof that even though they may have believed in what they were doing, they were also scared to the highest degree.

This is where me and Lu got into a debate of sorts. He was of the mindset that the terrorist that day were in no way afraid of dieing as the last scene of the program would have you believe. "The people that do these kinds of things are absolutely crazy, and they really don't care." That was his reasoning, and, I completely understand where he was coming from.
However, I feel that no man who KNOWS his time on this earth is over can be without fear. We, as human beings, have come a long way in our understanding and knowledge of many things. That being said though, no man can fully know what lies in wait beyond this level of existence if you will. We can have faith, and a belief that there will be "a better tomorrow" after we pass on; but in all honesty, we don't know. For that reason, I feel that any man or woman who meets his or her end in a fashion where he or she is fully conscious and aware, will harbour some level of fear.

Now don't get me wrong. I DO believe that you can have an acceptance that you're going to die, but accepting that fact and then having to face it as it is happening are entirely two different things to me. Military personnel for example. These men and women are trained for combat and, though I haven't served in the military, there seems to be to some level of brainwashing to set that fear of death aside so that they can be in a better position to take life when they need to. I completely understand that and; better yet, understand the need to be able to think like that when in battle. But I'll again refer you to the History channel (lol, one of my fav. channels...sorry for the plugs lol). How many times have you seen documentaries on WW I and WW II and heard accounts of the horror on a man's face as he lies there with his life leaving his body.
If I can quote one of the veterans of the first World War:
"Any man who went over the top and said he wasn't afraid is damn liar."

Now if these men, who see the absolute worst of man-kind (and to their credit continue forward), can admitt to this, then I don't see how ANY human being can totally rid themself of that fear when they die. This includes the terrorist who go to such extreme measures like suicide bombings. Even if they do believe that such sacrifices will grant them admittance into the highest level of heaven, they, as mortal men, are going to die and there is no other way to look at it. As far as tangibililty, what you are is going to cease to be. To me, the only way to die peacefully and without fear, is meeting that moment without knowing or realizing it. In other words, in your sleep or in a situation where you are not aware. Other than that I feel everyone will have a level of fear when the time comes.

Again, I'm not trying to make this a religious question or debate, so tell me what you think. Can a man die with absolutely no fear if he (or she) is at the moment of death itself and aware of it?

[xa]

I believe that someone could die without fear, but not without doubt as to what lays next. If I was about to die, I don't know. It's complicated because I've never really been about too die. I think that if one were to 'go over the top' on purpose they probably wouldn't be afraid because that's their descision. If they are ordered they still may fear death.

[Allstar]

If i was to Know when i was goin and how i was going to die,I would have fear, but thats the only way i would have fear.

[WARLOCK]

i don't know about dieing without fear, but i can speak from experience and say that RESOLVE will, in some people, push fear down to the lowest poosible rung on your priority ladder at the moment of imminent death.

about 5 years ago i pissed off the wrong people and got into some seriously heavy ****. i wound up with a gun to my head knowing that if the guy pulled the trigger on me then he would probably go after my family next so i decided that if he was gonna kill me anyway i might as well try my damnest to kill him too, if not first. that's where the resolve came in, i was so scared i almost pissed myself but i didn't realize just how scared i had been until after the i ended the situation.

i found out that night that when the blood's pumping and the addrenalin's flowing that fear takes a backseat to action when you decide that there is something you MUST do even at the cost of your own life. the terrorists had that going for them fueled by thier religious and political beliefs. that's one helluva mental cocktail to have runnin through your head.

[AGuyWithaGun]

Originally Posted by xa

I believe that someone could die without fear, but not without doubt as to what lays next. If I was about to die, I don't know. It's complicated because I've never really been about too die. I think that if one were to 'go over the top' on purpose they probably wouldn't be afraid because that's their descision. If they are ordered they still may fear death.

Never really thought about in those terms I suppose. Even though by definition, fear and doubt are different (there are two definitions for each, one of them making the two similar lol), I put them together as far as this topic goes. Still though, that's an interesting way of looking at it that I didn't think about. On the other hand, you make a point that I was trying to convey to Lu that night lol. We can sit here and discuss and speculate, but in the end that's all it's going to be. Discussion and speculation. For the most part, I'm willing to bet that at least 98% of us have never had a "near death experiece." But even those that have had them and thus given accounts, they too admitt to a state of fear followed by a supreme level of calm.

I understand what you mean as far as the descision statement too. But even if you do decide to take your own life or give up your life, I can't help but feel there's going to be not only apprehension, but fear for the simple fact we don't know for sure what lies for us on the other side, if anything ya know? Espeically in wars that were fought on the level of the first and second. Almost makes me wonder if it's death we fear so much as it is the unknown...hhmm. Eh, I'm getting off topic lol.

Good stuff though, keep it coming. Making me think and that's something I enjoy :).

Edited note:
Can't you say the same thing as you're laying there dieing Warlock. I mean, after the action has ceased and there's nothing else to do, and all of the body's self-numbing juices have stopped flowing, wouldn't that fear creep back into you? That's what I'm asking. Not speaking of the actual process that leads up to it. I mean it's a truely an amazing thing what the mind does to allow the body to carry out what it must. I do not deny that. But at that very instant where it's ceased and all is quiet...what about then.
When the mind has nothing else to feast on, it'll feast upon itself.

[WARLOCK]

that's very true guy but there's no telling what weirdness the human brain can come up with at any given time. according to my mom, grandma came in one morning and cooked breakfast as always, started the laundry as always, then sat down at the kitchen table as always. mom says she looked up to ask grams a question and she swears grams was listening to someone sitting next to her so she waits a moment to see how the situation will play out when grams looks over and tells mom that she loves her and it's time to go, and don't forget to take the chicken out to thaw for dinner. she then precedes to die of a stroke right there sitting at the breakfast table without so much as a gasp. mom said that she had the most peaceful look on her face she had ever seen.

death is some weird **** man and there's no telling what exactly goes on at the final moment, especially when you start thinking about different quantifiers such as violence, natural causes, suddeness, so on and so forth. i've studied the occult for a little over 18 years now and the reapers visits are the one thing that nobody has a sure or sound theory on. we all find out for sure at some point but by then it's already too late to tell anybody.

[OTTER]

IMO, adrenaline overcomes fear if there is a ****-load of it. Let's say some soldiers are holding down a key-building, but are getting overrun and know they are going to die, so just give it all they got in their final 30 seconds. Or same with huge *** wars in Midevil(sp?) times, you saw in like...Lotr or Troy or something, all the prep talks prior to charging, it gets their adrenaline flowing so they can just run in there like a wild-man not caring about dieing, just intent on serving their purpose. That's what I think was going through the heads of the Terrorists flying the planes.

[Candle]

Berzerkers are these huge guys that back in the day (not sure which day...) would cover themselves in full body paint and sprint toward the enemy screaming and waving weapons, often wiping out whole sections of the enemy force and taking several arrows before falling. Kamikazis of WWII were also completely dedicated to thier cause, which would also result in the end of thier life.

People die, its only a matter of when and on whose terms. Some people are just of the mindset that allows them to make a decision that will end their life, but in their opinion will do some sort of good beyond that which they could accomplish in their own lifetime. Therefore, they may subconciously decide to give their life to better the lives of others, since it would be the ultimate (and greatest) achievement in their life.

I'm not really too sure if the above made any sense, and since I haven't been in a position to experience anything near dying, I can only speculate on the feelings of others at the time of death. Maybe I'll provide more insight once I get some foodums in my empty belly...

By the way, Warlock, those were some good little stories you had there. Any way you could elaborate on the first one? If not, that's fine, but I gotta say that was ballsy. Good ****.

[NEWTON4]

I was watching the discovery channel and it was an episode of death and the mind and body. Well it says this guy in London ot hit by a car and the car took off "hit and run". The guy was pronounced dead at the scene. They had his body in one of those walls with litte doors and they slide out(i hope you know what i mean). Three days after his death (remember his heart had stoped and everything....suposedly) he woke up. When he was giving his story he said that if felt like he had been dreaming for 1 min. He said the dream was of his whole life. Everything he had done up to that point. It showed all of his family and he said right when he got up to the point where the car hit him he just woke up.

I find it very interesting myself. What do you guys think?

[Adema]

People who have died and come back say that is very peaceful. Death is never painful, dying is. :D But seriously, nobody should fear death. There is no reason to. If you're not religious, do you really want your last thoughts or actions to be crying like a little girl instead of dwelling on loved ones? Don't fear death, welcome it. Most people do.

Originally Posted by Candle

Berzerkers are these huge guys that back in the day (not sure which day...) would cover themselves in full body paint and sprint toward the enemy screaming and waving weapons, often wiping out whole sections of the enemy force and taking several arrows before falling.

Around 8th through 14th century or so until Germany started to centralize. Same with sucide bombers and people who charge soldiers taking bodies full of lead before dying.

On another note, people who can lay down and die (I don't know if any of you read Walkabout) that is the mind basically shutting down and letting death happen. There have been studies where a guy was put into a refrigerated car and told that it was going to be lowered to four or five degrees farenheit. He froze to death at room temperature. They never changed the temperature. Same with another subject who was burned by a rod he thought was in a fire; same thing, room temperature.


Courage is dying for one who is already dead
Courage is realizing that death does not matter
Courage is gathering strength from your fear