Pearl Harbor conspiracy?

Boba.Fatt · 08-22-2006

So I have to engage in a debate for one of my graduate courses and the argument I have to make is that we knew about the attack on Pearl Harbor before it happened.

Does anyone have any insight into the argument that isn't found in a simple google search that might help me win the debate?

I thank anyone in advance for any light they can share on the topic.

Chimaira · 08-22-2006

I dont think that we knew about it back then, like we knew about other attacks on us before they happened. If anything back then was like it is now, they wouldnt have done anything to prevent that attack either. I will do some more research on this and come back to this topic.

bigmike8119 · 08-22-2006

From reading History books, I believe that the code was broken and the attack was known about, but the higher ups didn't believe it because they didn't want to think that US Navy was volunerable. I'll look up some inforation here in a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

U.S. civilian and military intelligence forces had, between them, good information suggesting additional Japanese aggression throughout the summer and fall before the attack. None of it specifically indicated an attack against Pearl Harbor. Public press reports during that summer and fall, including Hawaiian newspapers, contained extensive reports on the tension and developments in the Pacific. During November, all Pacific commands, including both the Navy and Army in Hawaii, were explicitly warned that war with Japan was expected in the very near future. And, on the day of the attack, General Marshall sent an imminent-war warning message to Pearl Harbor specifically. In Hawaii, there were several indications of the incoming attack, but none caused increased local readiness by defenders. Had any of these warnings produced an active alert status, the attack would have been resisted more effectively and perhaps caused much less death and damage. The attack arrived at a Pearl Harbor that was in fact unprepared: anti-aircraft weapons were not manned, ammunition was locked down, anti-submarine measures were not implemented (no submarine nets, for instance), combat air patrols were not flying, scouting aircraft not in the air at first light, etc.

NUN-PUNCHER · 08-22-2006

I would say that with the amout of Naval Personal and Craft massed at Pearl Harbor that we were anticipating some sort of attack. I also remeber reading somewhere of German Submarines not far off our Atlantic Coast.

What about the movie Pearl Harbor with Ben Affleck and Kate Beckinsale. I've never seen the movie personally but maybe that can set you up with the arguement you seek.

Jimdalf · 08-22-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by NUN-PUNCHER

I would say that with the amout of Naval Personal and Craft massed at Pearl Harbor that we were anticipating some sort of attack. I also remeber reading somewhere of German Submarines not far off our Atlantic Coast.

What about the movie Pearl Harbor with Ben Affleck and Kate Beckinsale. I've never seen the movie personally but maybe that can set you up with the arguement you seek.

The pacific fleet was based at pearl harbour... you have to concentrate large sections of a fleet in only a few places for teh ships to support each other effectively... Jerry submarines were sinking british (and canadian) ships off your atlantic coast because you hadn't entered the war yet

Pearl Harbour, the recent film, is an extremely poor histoical source... very entertaining, but in that film ben affleck and his buttbuddy shoot down multiple enemy aircrft over the harbour... in the actual event not one US warplane made it off the ground... so do not trust that film

It was known that the Japanese military was gearing up for war long before the first shots were fiired, and having all of those pretty battleships and aircraft carriers at pearl made it a pretty sure target for the first strike... I am not sure why the port was still such a soft target when it was attacked, but I can tell you with certainty that any conspiracies which say the US government wanted pearl damaged as heavily as possible so as to justify war are wrong... when you want a reason you dress some of your soldiers in your soon-to-be enemies uniform and attack your own assets (Hitler did this in 1939 to justify his invasion of poland)... you DO NOT leave yourself open to a crippling attack, it was sheer luck that enough of the pacific fleet escaped damage to fight and beat the japanese at midway

NUN-PUNCHER · 08-22-2006

Ten minutes later I had thought about my pearl Harbor Movie suggestion and said to myself, " You know that was a pretty stupid reference suggestion "

Jimdalf, your facts are interesting . I think I might do a bit of reading on this today.

Godmoney · 08-22-2006

Boba, check out the movie "Tora! Tora! Tora!". I think it provides a pretty accurate description about how knowledge of what was going to happen. It's available in black & white or color.

marble man · 08-22-2006

There's been a thought, that Rooseevelt wanted to get into the war, faster than congress did. So he had the fleet moved to Pearl in hopes of getting Jaoan to attack. But from all I've read, and seen, that's just wrong. He moved the fleet there, to back up the warning we sent Japan, to not advance anymore. There was always a chance of Japan attacking, but it wasn't thought they would be so bold, to hit Pearl Harbor. They were thinking more of the Philippines, etc, at the very most. When word was passed out, to all Pacific commands, that something might happen, the General at Pearl, was more worried about sabotage, than a big attack. That's why they lined up all the fighters in a row, instead of spread out. They thought it would be safer and easier to guard them, if they were all together. The Japanese loved them for that!
On the day of they attack, there were a few warnings. One was back in DC, where the Japanese Ambassadors were going to announce something. But it was thought it was only going to be a statement, that they were going to keep taking over islands/lands if they wanted. It was in fact going to be to announce they were at war with us. But they wanted to time it, so they would announce it, before the attack. But do to some goof up, the Ambassadors didn't get the permission to do so, until it was to late.
And we had a new radar set-up running. And the operators saw the first attack coming in, and announced it. But the higher ups, said it had to be a flight of B-17's cming in. And there was a flight of them coming in, but it was from the east, not the west. The Japanese also had some midget subs, that were suppose to sneak in, and see what they could sink, when the air attack started. But one of those, was spotted early in the morning, and was attacked and sunk. But again, the higher ups didn't pay attention. They could have had most of the fleet, up to steaming, if they had done it right. If they had enough steam to move, most of the ships could have moved out to sea, where they would have had a better chance.
So there were some warnings. But no one thought they'd launch a full attack.
And Jim, we did get some planes up. We had some small airstrips spread out, where at one, two P-40's were able to make it off. And they both scored. I think one got four kills. But not sure on that. And I believe a P-36 got a kill. But again, I'm not sure. I do know our planes shot up some of theirs. It's been a few years since I read the books.
As for the movie, Tora! Tora! Tora!, I saw some of that being filmed. Pretty cool! They used our carrier for the scene of one of the carriers coming back, after the attack. And I guess you could say I was in the movie. I was up on the island when our ship came into Pearl. You can't see me, but I was there.LOL

Jimdalf · 08-23-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by marble man

And Jim, we did get some planes up. We had some small airstrips spread out, where at one, two P-40's were able to make it off. And they both scored. I think one got four kills. But not sure on that. And I believe a P-36 got a kill

Damn... yup, you correct, american planes made 25 sorties during the attack, although I can't find anything that details the number of kills... I'll just take your word for it... my crazy aunt told me years ago that none of the american planes got off the ground (she is usually right but I guess that was one of her crazier moments) so when I saw Pearl Harbour I assumed that the two planes getting into the air were just so american audiences didn't feel too bad about themselves

And so, in summary, never take anything Jim says seriously, because he is wrong way too often

Erg · 08-23-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by NUN-PUNCHER

Ten minutes later I had thought about my pearl Harbor Movie suggestion and said to myself, " You know that was a pretty stupid reference suggestion "

Jimdalf, your facts are interesting . I think I might do a bit of reading on this today.

The movie peral harbor with Ben Affleck is inaccurate but I find the one older one (much older me thinks) is pretty damn accurate.

I also heard that British knew more about the attack then the U.S, however they needed the U.S in the war so they withheld the info. There are rumours that there are Britisih documents that state this however if they exist theyve been locked up for at least 100 years.

As per the actual Pearl Harbor attack, the attack was not as crippling as the Japanese wanted because (like Jimdalf said) out of dumb luck the U.S Aircraft Carriers werent in Pearl Harbor and gave the U.S a striking capability against the Japs.